who do you think had the most influence on the british?
which one really got the british out of india?
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Many here are raising the point:
That Bose seeked help of NAZIs, and How could he even think of that!
In that circumstances Bose did what is right for the country, we might say oh! how could he do that. Bose had his experiences like: Jalian Wala Bagh, Non-Cooperation Movement, Murder of Lala lajpath Rai, Trial of Bhagath Singh, Irwin Pact, Many more...
When 2nd world war broke out Netaji called for second non-cooperation movement but gandhiji didn't agreed to it, his point being not to crush enemy when he in critical situation, even though they raped & murdered many of us.
Savarkar, like people informed bose about INA (by RashBihari Bose of POWs in Singapore); so Bose has to quit congress and march ahead to gather POWs in Europe to fight for freedom..
If feel its very straight forward how bose acted inspite of contempt & rejection from whole congress..
Gandhi Said - 'Subhash Ki Jeeth Meri Har', - Sucess of subhash will be my failure..
But Bose adorned Gandhi with 'Father of Nation' on radio from Germany. (I wanted to stress the point that even though bose shook hands with hitler, never ever forgot about Gandhi and his values)
Looking at Gandhi's actions:
- How could he support British in the Boer War, the Zulu War, WW1 and WW2 (What happened to non-voilence), if anyone wants to argue the justice was on brtish side, what about Bhagath, Bose were they on wrong side; some argue about we had no weapons, consider non-cooperation again? even if we digest this then there will be no room for truth & non-voilence in Gandhi's ideals. (You can read Savarkar's comments on speeches of Nehru & Gandhi advocating to support british during war)
- Aborting non-cooperation because 20 people died, which pushed freedom 27 years ahead; how could he accept freedom with Partition+Crores of Deaths + Rapes + Threat in Future which he denined 27 years before for just 20 deaths..?
- Why couldn't he support bose to lead non-cooperation in the begining of 2nd world war.
- Was it justifiable to start fast-to-death if 55 crs not-given to pakistan, while pakistan was waging war against us in kashmir?
Dear Suresh ji,
All that you say is not new. This has been going on for years. By defending Bose unreasonably you are dragging all into a futile debate. There was a particular group of people in India who admired Hitler. That mindset is still active in India. Mind you, Bose was not among them! He had a strategy which was wrong. He thought that since Germany was fighting the war aginst the Britain somewhere else, Hitler would support the invitation to come to wards India. Nothing of the sort happened. Such people are there even today. So, if you do not find anything wrong with Bose seeking support from Hitler, it is not surprising.
I hope you get some good book to read about 'Quit India' movement. Was it Savarkar who informed Bose about INA ? Well, I am not aware of it? Could you please quote some book for my reference?
About Zulu war and Boer war - Gandhi did not become Mahatma from birth. he evolved as Mahatma. If your assessment of him about Zulu war and Boer war is correct,South Africa would not consider him as one of the fathers of the nation. Please also think from this angle. Again, 'History of Satyagraha in South Africa' and other good books are of immense help in this regard.
Your advice to read Savarkar's comments on speeches of Nehru and Gandhi reveals whatever l;ittle was hidden. By the way what was Savarkar himself doing all the time after his ignominious act of seeking pardon from the British to come out of Andaman jail? Will you please find out and let us enlighten about his activities till independence and immediately thereafter?
Gandhi's actions - He aborted non-co-operation because 20 people died which pushed freedom 27 years back. Are you sure that this was the reason why independence came so late as you claim? Then, what happens to your arguments about Britain being in trouble etc?
Please find out why (if at all such question arose) he did not 'support' Bose for non-co-operation. there are good books. What was wrong in giving Rs. 55 crores to Pakistan as you say, when it was fighting against India? I am sure you will find out if you go beyond Savarkar and Godse. Your local library must be having good books. You can read a number of websites on Gandhi. All these questions keep coming from a group that reads only Savarkar. You are a good student, I suppose. Good luck in your efforts to understand Gandhi.
I admit hitler was very cruel man... But if we look at the whole picture instead of looking at single part, we might not end-up thinking that it was mistake to seek help of hitler...
Hitler's transportation & ammunition was running on the oil supply from JD Rockefeller's an American company, so if America & other's were saints, they could have crushed hitler without much damage to the world.. The collapse of the economy needed war, so they lead a war...
American's speak good deal of democracy blah blah.. and write volumes about hitler's cruel conduct, inspite of their indirect part.. But, they never speak about erasing races till 1929 (I am speaking of American Indian race)..
And I never advocate that Savarkar did a great deal, he did as much as he could, might be very less comparing to others. And I wish Godse never should have killed Gandhi, and Gandhi lived longer enough to convay his feelings about Nehru's Govt's conduct.. And by Revolutionaries I mean starting from Jansi ki Rani to Bhagath Singh not just Savarkar & Godse..
If Sardar wouldn't have stepped ahead, I might have deen a Hundu suffering in central Pakistan. And India's shape would not have been the same as we see it today.
We all admire Nehru's letter's to Indira.. But infact Nehru gave the same speech that ManMohan given in london on the occasion of his honor Dr.. from oxford. India's history, technology, culture everything was bad it was the british who gave life to India.. British gave that, this that.. And India must forget it self and copy the western ways...
Where pity Gandhi dreamed of Nai Talim...
Today people make fun of Vedas saying, it considers Earth as flat. Because they don't really know what vedas tell, they just repeat the western/christian propogated agenda.. Because they never taught that, it was Aryabhatta who discovered helio centric theory (including ellispe motions & keplers formulas) first a 1000 years before copurnicus, who was crucified infront of church for his theory against christian myth..
Our textbooks are too currupted and never dare to tell truth to promote the political agendas.. Our textbooks advocate that, there is no 'Islam Invasion of India' its just kings fighting, like pandyas fought with srilanka.. They don't even teach why a mountain in afganistan called Hindu-Kush (Hindu slaughtery)...
I thought PN Oak was stupid, his propaganda was fanatical.. I expected that Govt & Court will find & exposes the truths and slap his propaganda, instead they just closed the case & locked down the areas that he quoted as proof.. It clearly implies that they are hiding something..
Non-Cooperation & Britain being in trouble are contemporary.. If non-cooperation was successful and we got freedom then no need to speak of bose arguing with gandhi, as it never would have happened.. Once britain was out of india in 1920 who cares, if it was in trouble in 1942..
And I don't want you to submit to my view that if non-cooperation was continued anyway we would have got freedom. Because its a sinario where we assume things...
And search for 'Quit India to Split India' ...
So, you suggest it was not wrong to seek help of Hitler! Why do you say so? Because of your love for Bose or for Hitler? Bose was a great patriot whose strategy was faulty, but he was not a religious fanatic. It is a well known fact that Those whose world view does not go beyond Golwalkar and Savarkar try to own him up as a facade to hide their sickening agenda. By associating themselves with big names like Subhash Bose and Sardar Patel they want to buy credibility and I can see from your writings that they succeed too.
You say you do not advocate that Savarkar did a great deal. Fine. He actually did a 'great deal' with the British imperialists that he would shun politics and work for the uplift of his community. This was a great deal for him and for religious bigots whom the British used against congress.
You say, you would have been in Central Pakistan had Sardar not stepped in. I do not know which region you belong to, but presumably you talk about Hyderabad? Because this was one of the three regions where there were dissensions with regard to joining India. It was AFTER partition, not before it. Sardar had accepted partition, you must know it. About the merger of princely states in India, he was in charge of the process! Where did he SPECIALLY stepped in, will you let me know?
I could not understand why you pity Gandhi for his Nai Talim (New Education).
You also talk about Vedas. How far is it relevant to the main line of discussion, hopefully, you know it better.
You say, Nehru gave the same speech as the recent speech of Manmohan (Dr. Manmohan Singh, Prime Minister of India?). Nehru must have copied his speech from PM's website and learnt it by heart before delivering his lecture. So, what is your problem?
You claim that our textbooks say there was no Islam(ic) invasion in India. Please show me one textbook which says so. After all, you too must have read those textbooks and it should not be difficult for you to quote from those textbooks.
P.N. Oak, who? The one whom the HIndu fanatics have propped up as a historian? No comment.
It will be better to read other books, not just RSS propaganda pamphlets that so clearly come out of your writings.
- I meant Nehru's and ManMohan's speeches were same (I hope you were just mocking at my english).. I was here just stating the mentality of westernized-Indians. there were editorials on manmohan's speech in UK news papers, which quoted manmohan singh proved that churchil was right that Indians are too damaged even though they are given freedom they will be slaves mentally so corrupted will loot the country, so its better to not give freedom...
- About Nai-Talim when Gandhi & Venobha were dreaming about it, Nehru and others advocated western kind of education with full fledged implementation... so nai-talim couldn't pick-up as western ideology was filled with comfort & money (no matter what kind of future we built)... I meant that was the right time to set-up a good education system.
- I am talking about NCERT history Textbooks... i will surely give the chapter & page nos next time..
The truth is there is no RSS in our area.. I don't follow RSS.. at the same time I don't hate them as they are just consequences of pseudo secularism, and issues like zihad, love zihad, etc..etc.
About PN Oak I just saw on TV, I was stunned see his claims, just tried find what did the Courts do about it.
Now I don't want to get into pseudo-secular thinking of Indians.. as there is no use of it..
Ancient India had the science & technology more than nehru knew or manmohan know..(you can refer Dharam Pal's works, he was Gandhi's shishya; and publications of Indian Institute of Scientific Heritage).. And I don't have to speak about its philosophy... So I am not worried if someone calls me bigot just because I stand for & from Hinduism...
"You also talk about Vedas. How far is it relevant to the main line of discussion, hopefully, you know it better."
- Once in A.P, TV9 channel was blatantly saying "The fools who believe in vedas can never understand that earth is not flat table"...
For this I blame our textbooks if they had taught about aryabhatta, that literated ignorant channel never would have said like that our nor people would have just tolerated it...
Seriously I don't know about Vedas but later, I concerned experts in Vedas, searched online to find if they really say that earth is flat.. I found that they don't..
If Indians were taught what was ancient indian technology & how it is ruined.. then people like nehru & manmohan will shut there holes..
For Ex: British ruined our Textile Industry, Blast-Furnace Technology... Many more but theses were Bigees..
I will say no more. We were not discussing Vedas and such other things. I think our discussion on Bose and Gandhi has ended long back. You can post a blog post discussing our ancient culture and Gandhi's role. I will certainly join you there.
Thank You all for your replies it has really given us food for thought and help on our projects. please keep posting your opinions and invite your friends to join the discussion.